In First Among Sequels Thursday has her own book series, but since they're supposedly at least based on the adventures of the first four books wouldn't that mean that Thursday has effectively revelealed everything she knows about the BookWorld to the world at large? That would mean that the scene when Alternate!Friday reassures her about really being her son because he knows about the BookWorld means nothing! Anyone one who read Thursdays books would know about the BookWorld! Granted, we don't know what happens in the sex-and-violence Thursday books after The Eyre Affair so they may not have any details or mention anything further about the BookWorld (which seems unlikely since they have titles like Lost in a Good Book and The Well of Lost Plots). No wonder Goliath didn't believe Thursday hadn't been back inside books! All they would have to do is read her adventures!

On the other hand Thursday1-4 didn't seem to know much about how books worked, so maybe they really skimmed over the details, still Thursday obviously had no problem going into the inner-most secrets of the book world when she told the world and booksellers about her adventures. That also brings up the question of why Thursday5 didn't know much about the inner workings of the BookWorld. The adventure in her book would have to have a lot of involvment with the Great Library and the like since we know she went into nonfiction for it.

Is there a BookWorld within the BookWorld because of the BookWorld described in the Thursday Next books within the Thursday Next books? I'm getting dizzy.

Anyway, even if there is an explanation for all this apparently Thursday5 is remaking all the Thursday books into the ones we actually know. Won't that allow anyone with access to a bookstore to see how all the BookWorld works, including Goliath? Is the BookWorld really ok with everyone suddenly knowing about them?

It seems like a pretty big plot hole but I would be thrilled to hear what you guys think about it.

Wow. I will have to not think about this. But it's too late because now that you have brought it up I will have to think about it.

Gaak. I'm dizzy too.

I wonder if every book from now on will reference the book before it AS a book, thereby setting up a chain (more like pyramid) of descending BookWorlds, as well as the characters within them (a Thursday from the TEA referenced in the FAS referenced in the upcoming book, for example). This kind of thing is lots of fun, to me at least, although it's true that if it gets too confusing the narrative is lost, and that's a cardinal sin as far as Jasper is concerned.

Oops! Forgot to mention…welcome, Bubblehobo! Have some pie! We're a lot more active in Nextian Chat, so come by and introduce yourself!

Does Friday just say he knows about bookworld, or is there some detail which may potentially not be in the TN1-4 books, but which Friday would know.

And I doubt there's a full bookworld needed in the books, just enough "sets" for each event. The TN1-4 books have "sets" to look like the books they resemble, I'd think, as it would get hectic to have two stories going on at once.

Although, (taking Jane Eyre) the point is that she doesn't


Hang on, I'm just gonna stop before my overthinking becomes recursive and my brain explodes.

I believe Friday's exact words were "Who else would know about the BookWorld?" and then he goes on to list more specific things like the fonts he can speak and stuff about Melanie.

I agree with you about the sets thing. It would only cause an endless loop to really have an entire BookWorld within the books (not to mention it would be really expensive) but that still doesn't explain why Thursday1-4 and Thursday5 knew so little about how the BookWorld worked.

And still, the biggest issue I think is that now anyone can know about the BookWorld's inner-most secrets. Why is Thursday allowed to do that? What are the consequences? Why doesn't Goliath just read her books to learn everything they want to?

Well, let me ask you--can you figure out how to navigate into, out of, and through the BookWorld using just the knowledge from TN1-4 (or even FAS as well)? Not to mention I suspect that initially the FAS versions of books 1-4 probably focus even less on the mechanics of the BookWorld and more on the sex and the killing. So I don't think they'd be much of a help to Goliath.

This is something I love about Jasper's books. We could enloop our brains for days on just this one subject!

bubblehobo, thanks, if he actually mentioned some stuff that didn't get into Tn1-4 in Thursday's world at metalevel 2 (We need terminology here, so...) it makes sense.

For meta-level ref:

ML0 - the world we live in, eat food, etc. at ML0, you can buy a book called The Eyre Affair by Jasper FForde (TN1ML0), a metafictional adventure of wit and innovation.

ML1 - the world within TN1ML0 (Nextian World). Dodos abound, SEBs lurk in grave yards. You could, until recently buy The Eyre Affair, a guns/ guts/ godawful book (TN1ML1).

ML2 - Things that happen within the books in TNML1. Most of Bookworld, the goings on in TN1ML1 that happen in her real world. The Jane Eyre that gets altered in TN1ML0 is at this level, as are the Emporer Zhark series.

ML3 - Things that happen within books within books within the TNML0 series. When Thursday1-4ML1 enters bookworld, this is the level she meets.

In theory, if Jasper wanted a scene where, say, Thursday interupted Gandalf within LOTR mythos, telling some hobbits a legend about ancient king Aragith, Aragith would be at this level.

ML4 - depth of meta as yet unplumbed, hopefully

Does this make any sense or have I finally gone mad?

Anyway, the point my brain wanted to make was that TN1ML1 would have a scene within a Thornfield Hall set, which represented ML3, but was constructed at ML2, passed through an imagino- transference device to be read at ML1, which would not actually be Thornfield Hall in Jane Eyre.

Thornfield Hall in Jane Eyre would be built, and exist at ML2.

The main fun in Thursday is the fun of ML1 and ML2 crossing over, and increasing MLs being connected, rather than increasingly disparate.



Right, I'm going to take my pills and have a nice lie down

Yeah, see, that's what I was trying to say, except that your explanation actually makes sense. :-)

Wow. Andy is a lot smarter than I am.

Nice summary Andy.
I would amend to say that the Emperor Zhark series, as a series, exists at ML1 where they are available, presumably, for people to read but that the the things that go on in the series exist at ML2.
Also, The Well of Lost Plots is a potential candidate for your ML4.

The books within the books are located in fiction.
Surely outland readers will realise this. For the books to have revealed everything about Bookworld, they would have had to be in Non-fiction under Biography.

Robert, of course various things exist at several MetaLevels, but being different things.

So at ML0 there exists the concept of Zhark books, as cheesy Space Opera, with a few hints of what they are.

At ML1 the Books actually exist. Spike or Landen could wonder into a bookshop and buy The Dread Havoc Machine of Zhark

At ML2 Zhark's World exists, along with aliens, his empire and his nemesis. At this level a square jawed captain could foil Zhark's evil schemes to destroy the entire of Octus XII by exploding their sun.

At ML3 I think we're in the metaness of bookworld, the WOLP etc. At this level Zhark and Mrs. Tiggywinkle fight grammasites and bust illegal adverb dealing rings.


Zhark exists at ML2 and ML3, and is the same person, but with different meaning.

A comparison would be Steve Coogan in Cock and Bull story (as an example)

At ML2 he's Tristram Shandy

At ML1 he's Steve Coogan portraying playing Tristram Shandy, and arguing with Rob Rydon and the film crew

At ML0 he's also Steve Coogan acting alongside Rob Rydon, and actors portraying a filming crew.

If it ever was so easy...

What about the time Zhark visits tha outland in SR? He's in ML1 in your nomenclature, then. He tells Thursday about the contract his new agent got him in ML3 for appearences in ML1 books (a minimum of eighty words' description at least once in any featured book, and at least twice in a book a chapter has to end with his appearence) - and then Jasper apperently has to honor that contract on ML0. How did Zhark accomplish that one?

(Oh, and what will happen to this thread now that it features Zhark? Robert's description is a bit short, don't you think?)

<faint but pursuing>

PH, yeah, it's not perfect, but it's more a way to get nomenclature. Whether it's helpful or not i'm not sure.

But if Jasper got to TN6 and has FAS having been serialised at ML1, then you might have the Thursday who "plays" the villainous Thursday from the Thursday series set up within the books, but isn't that Thursday, because that Thursday got eradicated meeting, and this Thursday only appears as her in Thursday's world's version of FAS. And then she meets the real Thursday

Or, the Thursday from TNML3, representing TNML2b, who meets TNML1.

-------
Turn the silliness to eleven!

HA!You know I do honestly think I understand why you guys are trying to say. but for the life of me I would never ever be able to explain it.

Plans of existence are such fun to try to explain though.

The TN1-4 books in 'Sequels' were fiction, so they may not have mentioned bookworld at all (or atleast very little - just stuff being blown up).

As for what information will go into the newer more accurate version, which would be a biography (done by Thursday's stalker Im guessing, and played by Thursday5) - I think that Thursday's stalker wont actually be told anything about Bookworld, so Thursday's biography will probably be pretty boring like most biographies!

But I wonder how technical Fforde will continue to get with the bookworld - Im wondering if he will have to blow everything up in the end - like he did with the chronoguard.

Well, considering that jumping into books is a much less-used plot device than time travel, I'm not worried that Jasper will get tired of it.

And hey, What a cool name, what a cool name! Welcome, and join us over at Nextian Chat where we're a lot more active (and most of us don't bite).