... is not 'Tee' (that would be too obvious, wouldn't it). It is actually DFJE (= 'Der Fall Jane Eyre').
Well, this may be no news to to you (I have been away for a while and can't read all the old threads - especially in Nextian Chat) but it was to me.

I have just spotted that a German version of TEA is scheduled for next January (or January Next). This brings me back to the discussion we had a while ago about how to translate Jaspers books. Well somebody is wrecking his or her brain at the moment doing exactly this. I think it must be fun in some ways ...
I am looking forward to seeing how Thursday does in translation.

I don't know how much i'm looking forward to the translation, I surely will read it and hope the translator does a good job (i sometimes tend to be too critical towards translations though).
I guess it will be hard to translate, and maybe have some problems finding the same appreciation of a German audience as it has in the English-speaking world, as all literary allusions are to english national literature. surely every German will know Shakespeare and maybe even have heard of the Bacon theory, but there are a lot allusions to lesser known authors (at least to Germans) as well. Anyway, we'll have to wait and see and hope.
I already started translating jon's guide for non-brits, because I think it'll be needed by a lot of German readers (and again, I'm glad that Jon and Jasper liked the idea and let me do it)



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Colourless green ideas sleep furiously.

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'Bacon theory' sounds a bit like 'breakfast philosophy' (my attempt at being funny in English at half past 12 at night).

Ok Violet, you are right about the impossibility of translating all the allusions. The translator is bound for shipwreck. Jasper's books are 'das schlechthin Unübersetzbare' (although this term has been reserved for poetry up to now). I like that somebody is at least trying. And ... there must be a life outside the English language ... and it is somewhat lacking without these books.

What is the sense in translating the 'Non-Brits Guide'? Those who know enough English to read the books should be able to understand the guide .... unless, unless you prepare this as a welcome present for all the German readers who'll flock to this page year next (or next year). Or is it meant to be included in DFJE (the German version of TEA)? Will you be using a footnoterphone?

It should be a welcome present for the future German readers and will be contributed to this website.
About translation in general: I think it is important that books are translated so that they are not restricted to readers of one language, and I think it is possible to come up with a good translation, and it's a shame that some really good books are spoiled by really bad translators (I wonder who is employing them, especiall in the case of the Pratchett translator) I think that in a translated version there should be much more editorial work done, e.g. footnotes explaining references which a reader from another culture probably wouldn't understand.
Of course, a joke is less funny when it has to be explained, but still i think, in this cases explanations are essential.



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Colourless green ideas sleep furiously.

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"Reading footnotes is like answering the doorbell on your wedding night" (Peter Barnes ... I think)
As an academic, I couldn't live without them, of course. My writing has about 5 footnotes per page ...
Translation (next round): All the 'Non-Brits' (but English speakers) seem to enjoy the books a lot even if they don't get the specificaly British allusions. So - it isn't exclusively a translation (of languages) problem. You always lose something when literature travels. But what is more is what is transported.
Once you have understood an allusion you wouldn't want to do without it, of course. But even an alert reader does not capture everything (even the 'guide' is not fully exhaustive) ... does that invalidate the reading?
There is a point, of course, were the loss is so great that the text gets destroyed. But let's hope that's not the case here.

Translator-bashing is as easy as complaining about Mensa-food by the way ...

Teacher, you're right, maybe I'm competing too hard with Simon for the annual Fforumite's Pedantry Award of 2003 (and he's a tough contrahent).

One doesn't have to get all allusions, but still I'm rather fond of footnotes (I usually have about 8 footnotes per page when writing, maybe I'm too ambitious, though my lecturers haven't complained yet)
Re: mensa food: the food in Duisburg's main mensa (we've got 3) isn't that bad actually, in Dortmund, however, it was hardly edible. (Not that anyone is interested in the food quality of ruhrgebietean mensas, but I like to be digressive from time to time, and who doesn't in this place?)



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Colourless green ideas sleep furiously.

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Since we are having a very private chat in this quiet backwater of the Fforum ... why shouldn't we discuss German Mensas?
Sounds great to have a number of places to chose from. One of the blessings of the Ruhrgebiet, I guess (I love the adjective 'ruhgebietiean'!). I wouldn't drive to Frankfurt to eat, though ... which is about as far as Duisburg is from Dortmund, right?
I do not complain about Mainz Mensa. They take real pains to make it worthwhile ... and then the best thing about the Mensa is always the company. When alone, I prefer a Döner (which might make sure that one stays alone ... 'mit alle und scharf').
Fondness of footnotes: When I was in GB for a year I got a comment on one of my essays which suggested 'less secondary reading' (probably my German-style scholarship - piles of footnotes - was not what they expected). So, somebody has complained about my footnotes.



Post Edited (09-15-03 12:59)

Erm, Frankfurt is like 300 km away from where i live, dortmund just 45. And i only went to the dortmund mensa when i was still thinking i wanted to be an engineer rather than a historian and philologist. But I can't say anything about its mensas there. Good thing about Duisburg's mensae (yeah, I'm still able to find the right latin casus), is that there's a good pasta buffet, in case none of the stammessen look interesting.



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Colourless green ideas sleep furiously.

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My my Vi!
My geography is bad sometimes. Living in Mainz I have realized that I can take the S-Bahn to Frankfurt ... but not to Dortmund. I always though there must be a reason for this. Now I know! It is the distance!

What I actually meant was: Mainz is at an equal distance from Frankfurt as Dortmund from Duisburg (45 km - thanks for the detail!). Or - to put it engineer-like: MZ-F = DO-DU (and not: DO-F = DO-DU) ...
from this follows that MZ+DU = DO+F or F=MZ+DU-DO ... I wonder how I can fit in some multiplication and square roots in here to make it more interesting ... then we could do some 'Kurvendiskussion' ... okay ... I seem to have forgotten much of my maths ... so 'Thrice Hail to You Princess Vi' for not forgetting the Latin!

Pasta buffet sounds good. We don't have that. A collegue would love it. I can always predict what she will take when there is pasta on the menue somewhere in the Mensa.

There's actually going to be a German translation??!

(sorry to interrupt your very interessting discussion about mensa food and distances - I love pasta by the way)

How do they want to do it? I always thought it would be impossible to translate TN... There are lots of puns that just won't work in German, I suppose. Thursday's name for example: Are they going to call her Donnerstag Nächster (doesn't sound very feminine, does it?) to make the jokes about her name make any sense to German readers? (wouldn't regard that as something like a good idea)
Perfect occasion for a footnote - I guess it could work for TEA. (Though I fear it might interfere with the ImaginoTransferece operating system) But imagine TWOLP with additional footnotes! How can you tell if it's the translator's explanation of what you are reading or just a junk footnoterphone message? Must be a bit confusing...
I really wonder how Der Fall Jane Eyre turns out ....

re: German geography. Now I see what you mean, but please keep math out of this, it gives me a headache. Anyway, talking about distances and S-Bahnen, I just wanted to add, that I rarely use public transportation ( I did when I still studied in Dortmund, the A 40 is a pain, it took me sometimes hours to get there by car).

re: food preferences of Mainz university's English department's teaching staff members and your prediction of said preferences. Erm, can't really say anything about it, but I like this Betreffzeile, so I'll leave it in

re: translation. I think probably the names won't be changed, as the novel is set in England it would be strange even for a reader who doesn't know any German at all, to read germanised names of english characters. A way to include explanatory footnotes without confusing the reader would be either to use different symbols (asteriskes and numbers, for examples, the annoted versions of Tristram Shandy are edited this way, and the rare translator's comments by loser who translated Pratchett's novels(a lot of footnotes belonging to the original text as well) are done like this as well)
However, in this case, and only in this case, in any other circumstances I hate them, I'*d recommend endnotes, as they wouldn't interfere with the footnoterphone messages at all. Maybe an introductory essay instead of annotations would do too.



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Colourless green ideas sleep furiously.

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Yooda:
We didn't know that 'Thursday' sounds feminie before we read TEA, right? To translate Thursdays name ... well, I guess it would not be the 'done' thing' (I agree with Vi - it makes communication between readers difficult when the hero has a completely different name in different versions of the book). You need a real reason to change it and then the change will be as minmal as possible (Hermione Grange in 'Harry Potter' became Hermine Granger because the name Hermione - which exists in English - does not not exist in German ... but Hermine does). So - I bet she will be Thursday Next.
But - would it really matter? Her name is a nice joke but (as with all of Jasper's 'telling names') not a crucial one ... or can somebody explain why her Christian name has to be a 'day'? So - actually any German wordplay would actually do, theoretically ... I can't think of a good suggestion right now (it's late again) but something along the lines of Axel Schweiß (sorry for the old joke) or Mira Bellenbaum (a friend of mine knew a girl with that name!).

Concerning footnotes:
The more I think of it the more I am against it. Hey - I am the teacher and I think we should get away from the 'we have to explain everything' approach. Maybe the idea of an appendix is acceptable (so one can choose to read all those dry explanatins of should actually be funny in itself). The result of the translation should be a funny novel and not a course in contemporary British culture and society, right?


Violet:
MZ Uni ED staff food preferences:
No more about it!

Public transport or car:
Well there is of course a thread in the Nextian Chat ...
I do not really understand why you do not take the train to get from DO to DU (or the other way round) if it is so difficult by car. If there is an area with a dense network of public transport it should be the Ruhrgebiet, or not?

Re: means of transport

Okay, long story. I live in Oberhausen and used to study in Dortmund. I tried to get there by car a couple of times, because I hate public transport, but gave up, because the s-bahn was way faster (except for frequent delays and cancelled trains during winter time or because off suicidals every two or three weeks). Now I study in Duisburg. Going there by car plus finding a parking space (which consumes the major part of the time) it takes me 20 minutes to get to uni by public transport I need between 35 - 40 minutes mainly because of the time i'd have to wait for the buses/trains, therefore I go by car now (+ I hate public transport)

Re: footnotes. Agree about what the result should be, but still like the idea of an appendix, but that's up to Jasper to decide. (Maybe the future generations of students should thank gsd on their knees every day, that I don't want to be teacher when I've finished my studies. ...maybe I should overthink it though, getting paid for torturing helpless creatures doesn't sound too bad actually..)

Re: Mirabellenbaum. Though there are enough adequate German puns, I hope the names won't be translated, because they just wouldn't fit the setting anymore. The thought that Landen will be called Schloss-Allee just gives me nightmares.



Post Edited (09-08-03 01:15)

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Colourless green ideas sleep furiously.

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I really hope they are not going to translate anything not absolutely necessary, expecially no changing of names. I don't think it was necessary to rename Hermione (correctly pronounced it's such a cute name while Hermine makes me think of a horrible old aunt) just because this form of the name does not exist in German. Have you ever heard of anyone called Hagrid or Neville or Draco e.t.c.?! And Thursday doesn't sound like a German name either...
Anyway, the less changes the better I'd say. (It makes me sick thinking of the Enid Blyton-boarding school-series that actually take place in Germany after the translation)
Well, let's hope the best... :)

Haven't ever read Blyton Books ( Dolly and Hanni & Nanni, whatever they are called in English) in the original and I must admit that it never really bothered me that the setting was changed so that it took place in Germany. I mean, as far as I recall there were hardly ever any place names in and having been a little girl when I read them, I didn't even think about that they were meant to be set in England. They were set in boarding schools, that's it. And they're children's books after all.
Though they are children's books, with HP it's something different I guess. It is obviously set in England so the "Germanisation" of names in my opinion is unneccessary and even annoying. (But I read only the first one in German anyway, so it couldn't bother me too much).
Worst examples of name-changing still can be found in the discworld-series. Still haven't found out according to which system the translator decides to translate, adapt or even just change the names, titles and whatever. If there's a system to it after all. Seems as if it just depends on the mood he's in when translating. Some of his decisions are just unforgivable.
I really just hope that Thursday and the others may keep her names in the translated versions. Any translation just would be inadequate to the setting of the novel, and therefore just destroy it.



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Colourless green ideas sleep furiously.

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Okay - this seems to be developing into a heated discussion about translation (well I have been asking for it by posting this thread, I guess) and I seem to have to hold the 'defend the translation' side (not even knowing the translation yet!) ... but anyway ... I love to play devil's advocate, so here we go:

'Schloß Allee' would be a bad translation for Landen Park-Laine simply because it may keep the content of the original pun but does not have the right form. One of the basic lections in translation classes is that you have find out what is important and to try to preserve that and not just to translate everything mechanically (and then complain about what is lost on the way). So what is important in Landen's name? Monopoly is not the point, right? Nowhere elese in the books is a reference to that game. We don't even know whether it exists in Thursday's world (most probably not because Landen's name would be ridiculous then). So 'Schloß Allee' is totally wrong. The central point in Landen's name is 1) it is a funny pun 2) it sounds remotely like a name 3) it has something to with 'to win the big one' or 'to catch the big fish' or 'to win the lottery' or something like that. If the translator finds a funny pun on a German idiom in that area which sounds remotely like a name why should he (or she of course) not go for it? Jasper does not seem to take the names of his characters too seriously (viz the discussion / quiz about 'telling names' here on the homepage) so why does the translator have to treat them as sacred icons?

A word about Hermione/Hermine (but this should not develop into a Harry Potter dicussion by all means): 'Hermione' sounds exactly like 'pompous old aunt' to British ears (so I have been told by native speakers) - therefore the German translation is obviously perfect. As regards 'Hagrid' or 'Draco', these names are not existing English names and they do not 'mean' anything specific in English (ok ... there is 'hag' in 'Hagrid' ... but what do you make of that?) and the 'sound feeling' and Latin reference is the same for Germans. So there was no need to change the names.

About translator's decisions:
I guess it's like politics. The translator has to make decisions (not makeing a decision and keeping the original is also a decision) which are always unpopular. If one tries to pacify the 'purists' (that's you Vi and Yooda) you reduce the fun for the 'not-so- fluent-in-English' and in extreme cases one could say the translator is not doing his (or her) job because ... if everything is kept and you need to be an Anglistik student with a great cultural knowledge about GB to understand the translation ... why bother and not read the English version?
Each change (even when fully justified and maybe even quite inventive) is bound to anger the purists who actually demand the impossible (i.e. that the German version is exactly like the English version).
Add to this the pressure to finish the job in quite a short time, the often lousy payment and the limited ingenuity even of good translators ... well, mistkaes are bound to happen.

As regards Enid Blyton:
I didn't fully realise where they were set when I read the books. As far as I remember now they had a Britsh feeling about them even if names were changed (boarding schools being quite exceptional in Germany for example). By the way - it would be fatal to try to rewrite TEA instead of translating it. Rewriting would mean to transpose it into Germany. We had fun imagining that Bavaria would be Wales etc., but that would not work. So, e.g. Swindon should remain Swindon but all the puns and the names of the secondary characters are open to change if the translator has good ideas, I'd say.

Teacher, I of course see your point, there would be no use writing a translation at all when the reader has to be an Anglistikstudent in order to fully understand it. Re the names, I still think, i'd prefer the puns to be lost for an non-english speaker, as a germanised name of an English character would just sound awkward. I don't even think that they really are "telling names" (the thing about Landen's name having to do with luck or something), I'd say that's already over-analysing it.
Re how translation works and how to find an appropriate translation for a certain word or text or pun, I absolutely do agree with you. I don't criticise a translator for leaving one or another pun out, because he cannot find an equivalent, I do criticise him when I think he could have come up with one and failed, or when he came up with something which isn't appropriate at all. (Just in case you're interested in a detailed example of what I criticise in a certain translation, click here) Of course not every joke or pun can be translated and therefore has to be just left out, but it's a shame when a translator overlooks opportunities to translate them, for example into a slightly different joke or pun which fits into the authors style of writing.



Post Edited (09-11-03 16:05)

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Colourless green ideas sleep furiously.

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I've been finding this discussion fascinating. Talking in general terms (rather than about Mr Fforde's books in particular), do you think that if the author of a work to be translated is appropriately bilingual/multilingual then their doing the job themselves is likely to yield a better result than somebody else doing it... or not?



Post Edited (09-11-03 16:26)

Well, I think that when an author is bilingual/multilingual he can be a great help to the translator because the discussion of different suggestion to translate a certain passage will probably be easier than when the author doesn't know the language his work is translated into at all.
In my translation classes I was taught that one should never try to translate from his native language into a foreign language, but only the other way round, because one will never be as good in a foreign language as he is in his mother tongue, so native speakers of the language the text is translated not only probably will notice that it was written/translated by a foreigner, but also it's likely that the author won't be able to come up with the same picture he has drawn in his native language when translating it into another.
Between writing in another language and translating is a huge difference. For instance, I'm writing this text at the moment in English, which is not my native language, and I'm sure I make more than one typically German mistake which tells you I am not English even if I wouldn't have told you before. Still, while I'm writing this text I think in English, I don't translate in my head, so I probably would need some time and even sometimes look the odd word up to translate it into German.
There have been authors who quite successfully translated their own works into different languages, for example Samuel Beckett. (In fact he's the only one who comes to my mind right now who has done so. Teacher, do you know any other example?) I also know some German bands who have provided an English translation of their German lyrics in the booklets of their cds, such as "Einstürzende Neubauten" (which you may have heard of in England) or "Goethes Erben" ( I somehow doubt that they're known that much abroad) Both bands have also written English lyrics. When comparing their genuine English lyrics and their own English translations of their German lyrics you can notice a difference in quality, which is probably caused by the problem of finding the right words in another language for something you have written in your own. This problem has nothing to do with the ability to write a text in this foreign language.
The suggestion it would be best if a bi- or multilingual author would translate his own works at first glance sounds very plausible, as he's the one who knows best what he wanted to say. Translation always is interpretation of a text, so a lot of the translator's thoughts and style find their way into the translated version and change it from the original. However I still think a text is better translated by a native speaker of the target language as long as he's working together with the author and discusses the more difficult bits with him, as the result in the most cases will be - in terms of grammar and of choice of words- more successfull than a translation by a native speaker of the source language. If said author would have been raised bilingually and spoken both languages from the very beginning of his life it this wouldn't apply of course, still the translation of a text takes a lot of time the author could better invest into writing new books.



Post Edited (09-11-03 17:29)

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Colourless green ideas sleep furiously.

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H'mmm. On the whole, I think that I agree with you about this.