Tippex? That's very advanced... I have to get a new moniter every time I screw up...



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There's a hole in my creativity bucket and it's all leaked out.

Kaz - <Feeling of empathy> I left school at 16, so you can most likely parse a sentence more than I ever could!

When did I revert back to being Ben, anyway? I've got quite used to being PSD online.

I now know how Clarke Kent must have felt when he got changed into his disguise (by carefully removing his glasses - genius)...



PSD

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This is the work of an Italian narco-anarchic collective. Don't bother insulting them, they can't read English anyway.

Well, I didn't now you were a 'Ben', Ben. Now I know, Ben, I'm quite pleased. I like to know people's real names, Ben. Only because I'm nosy, Ben. And thanks for those encouraging nods and smiles, Ben. Makes me feel much better, Ben (Have I annoyed you yet, Ben?)

Belocha - I was 16 when I left school too, and I'm not sure what it actually means to parse a sentence, unless you misspelled that and meant to write 'pass a sentance', which sounds remarkably like Verbal Diarrhea.

Kaz - Nah, I had "parsing' (grammatics in a word or sentence) knocked into me by my Australian English Language teacher. It made me have an innate respect for the Australians and their education system! He also taught French, which made us laugh, but then he'd always regale us with how he got his nose broken which commanded a respectful silence.

I used to torment my French teacher by drawing cartoons of men with onions round their necks doing various things. Stuff like 'French Budget Airlines' with a frenchman dropping a large rock onto the other end of a seesaw he was standing on... There was nothing inherently Gallic about the idea, I jut realised it made it even more annoying...



PSD

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This is the work of an Italian narco-anarchic collective. Don't bother insulting them, they can't read English anyway.

So, PSD would you describe yourself as a Francophile? :) TBH I'm crap at French, never mastered any 'Romantic' language. The only ever aptitude I've shown was for Hindi, Swedish or Russian, and I can't draw cartoons in any of them. I can swear quite fluently in most European languages though.

Sarah B - If you are interested in doing a combined degree at Birmingham Uni; if you get the chance to talk to any of the technicians do so, they are an invaluable source of information. The ones connected to the Geography unit were responsible for a lot of papers that were published "in tenure" during the 80's and 90's. Please don't quote me on that though.



Post Edited (06-26-03 00:44)

Like I said, I only drew them as I knew it annoyed. I am actually quite fond of France, especially Normandy. I enjoyed being able to speak a little French when I was passing through Belgium a couple of years ago.

I quite fancy exploring France properly, especially the bits you never hear about.

I'm not terribly good at languages though as I'm too nervous about making a fool of myself speaking them rather than just throwing myself into it. I studied a little latin and spanish, which makes it easier to pick stuff up, but my french is best. It helps that we have some French friends, who visited us last Autumn. I got on well with their kids:

"Aimez-vous le Playstation? C'est dans le salon."

Possibly not entirely accurate, but good enough to produce a couple of beaming faces from two kids who were bored stiff of the adults chatting in English...



Post Edited (06-26-03 00:51)

PSD

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This is the work of an Italian narco-anarchic collective. Don't bother insulting them, they can't read English anyway.

If you like a blank faced challenge to your French skills, choose the Northern regions around Arras, they seem to enjoy English tourists who don't have the correct accent.

Easier going conversations I've experienced from Arcachon to Aigues Morte. Aigues Morte is my favourite place in France, a walled city with fabulous restaurants, a carnival atmosphere in August, salt pans, flamingos, wild horses and open air cinema. Also has the best art galerie for glass sculpture in the South of France.

I can speak pig latin. Does that count?

Sarah B: The Nat-Sci's seemed like a good bunch when I was up at Cambridge. (See I can even still talk the talk ! How one goes up to Cambridge from darkest Yorkshire I'll never know.) Go for it ! I believe Churchill is the best college (but I may be biased). They do a fine line in rubgy shirts - neon pink / chocolate brown quarters.

Kaz: I'm not sure how many people round here went to Uni and how many didn't. It doesn't matter. It's all very different now the government is encouraging everyone to go compared to when we were young (from what you said the other day, we left school at the same time although I stayed till I was 18). I read a good article by Melvyn Bragg the other day (do you get him in Oz - he does the South Bank Show and arts progs). The problem is that vocational training is not considered as highly as academic. It should be. They're just different. Sorry, it's something that really annoys me.

Why does everyone go on about David Beckham not being intelligent ?
No one says Stephen Hawking is sh*t at football !

Rob - Agree with what you say about vocational courses. During a bout of unemployment I took the opportunity for re-training and did two NVQ design and desktop publishing courses. They were very useful and I thought they were a good idea. Going to interviews I found that I had to do a great deal of explaining about what a Vocational Qualification was. The tendency was for people ot look at the certificates and go "oh, City and Guilds", in a dismissive sort of way.

I agree too. Bring back apprenticeships and that sort of thing, it would make much more sense than trying to get everyone to go to uni and be academic for another 3/4 years, and it might be easier to find a plumber when you need one...

Plumbers, electricians etc make a fortune these days, apparently, because there's so few of them.



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Do something pretty while you can...

Here we find that students who've done NVQs are often better - certainly at the practicals. I suspect they're the ones who'll go off and make really good engineers, rather than designing things which are great in theory but impossible to fabricate. You know what fools academics can be !

To be fair to employers, it is very difficult with the range of qualifications now available. Sometimes we've very little idea what a student's CV actually means and we're in education. I've looked at some applicants portfolios and have no idea whether they're grade A at 'A' level standard or scraping a pass.

Agreed, Dante. It took me until I had done BSc Physics and MSc (Tech) Control Systems to realise that I had taught myself everything I had done well at, and the education system was a complete lottery. E.g. a whole paper of my finals was set on the wrong syllabus.

My nephews 'A' level maths course contained a strong dollop of my old 'O' level course; standards are in freefall. John Harvey Jones pointed out that at 13 he was in charge of navigating a small Naval vessel, and that was nothing unusual; that was probably 1950's or earlier. Maths for same is now taught at 17, it seems.

If they manage to get 50% into university it will only be by diluting courses, as I am QUITE sure that 50% of the population cannot do Quantum Mechanics.

Once I got into industry and had some job training, I quickly concluded that if private enterprise ever got involved in mass education, they would never spend a penny on the methods in use in schools. My own favourite qualification is an NCC Certificate in Systems Analysis and Design. It was taught properly, examined properly, and enabled me to deal with real world problems.

Ever play the 'Balloon' game? You're in a group of people in a balloon above a devastated earth, and one must go. Each person makes a case for their retention on the basis of their future usefulness to society. Plumbers and carpenters first, I say.

Hey Dave R, I've got an NCC Certificate in Data Processing (mostly COBOL programming, how dull).
I haven't been to University either and neither did some of the most intelligent people I know.

I went to uni, but I'm younger'n you...these days everyone goes. I didn't learn anything *useful* there, I don't think. Well, I did in my post-grad a bit, but not my actual degree.

A bit concerned about the "balloon" game - my job is really only useful to societies at a fairly high level. I suspect most people would be more useful than me. I might bring my own parachute - either that or learn plumbing.



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Do something pretty while you can...

Dante: Considering the way this thread's going, you're considerably safer than me !

Dave R: I think you've got to be careful in slagging off education too much. The bright students are as bright as ever and they can't help what exams they've had to sit.

It gets really annoying when older people keep going "ooo in my time exams were much harder and we had to memorise this and that and there were no calculators and whatever"

Times change... I know what I can and can not do and I don't want people saying I only got my grades / degree / job because it's all so much easier now...

No doubt they are, Rob. I never said students were responsible for the quality of teaching or examination. My nephew made the system work, and there's no denying his ability.

Neither am I saying who is at fault, and my own criticisms relate to 17 years ago or more. Individuals are rarely the cause of a problem; it is normally the systems of interaction between functions and responsibilities that are the cause.

Sorry Carla; I don't think there's much value in memorising things either, and I don't think calculators are a nuisance. They require their own techniques and have eliminated huge amounts of repetitive work. I'm not arguing for some kind of strange reversion. I did my A levels with calculators.

But honestly I think you are both complaining about things I havn't said. I don't think that students are intrinsically any less able than they ever were or that there is some essential value in doing things in an outmoded way. I think education shortchanged me 20 years ago and I am sure by any objective criteria that those subjects I have any knowledge of are examined at a lower level than they were - I cannot speak for other fields. Even in 1979 the (excellent) teachers who taught me Physics openly advised us that they had chosen the JMB syllabus because it was easier than the alternatives. An inverted auction was already underway.

Unfortunately the examination boards have not kept their old papers and are unable to verify whether there are any changes in standards, which to me is quite amazing. What would be really a tragedy would be if we were not allowed to suggest that anything was wrong; because that would make it certain that things could not be remedied if they were at fault.

It has not been my intention to undermine anyones qualifications or feelings, and if I have inadvertantly done so I apologise.