Just discovered this author in my library and am now hooked - wondered what you guys think of his stuff? I like it - kind of cross between Terry Pratchett and an adult (and funny) Harry Potter, with more than a spattering of Fforde in the humour and, like him, just enough 'ook' words for me to say 'Oy, hands off,' to any of my brood tempted to 'borrow' The Portable Door.

So - next question. How do you feel about swear words in kids literature, in particular the 'eff-you-sea-kay' one? (I'm talking U15 teens here, although I do have a very intelligent 8 year old who refuses to read anything in her own age group)
My kids have plenty of Pratchett in their school library, but no Tom Holt and v.little Jasper Fforde (I think they've got the latest one - can't offhand remember the language level) I guess this boils down to how much swearing is involved, which seems a great shame to me as it means a whole generation are being denied the joys of reading things at the level their brains are at - as far as libraries go, anyway. I'm not talking Tarantino levels here, but the odd 'f' word thrown in for good effect really works for me, and it's not as if the average youngster doesn't hear that in the street, anyway, much as you'd like them not to. So long as it's not excessive I can't see the odd 'strong' word does any harm to older readers (I edit them out for my 8 year old with fixit notes - not that it stops her)

I haven't read any books specifically aimed at teens/young adults in full, but do they contain strong language? I know the content can be, er pretty 'basic' when it comes to words with more than 2 syllables, for example. One thing J.K Rowling isn't guilty of, thank god. Why do these publishers imagine all our kids to be thickos? I threaten my lot with a full reading of Mary Shelley if I so much as get a whiff of J.R Stine.

There - two threads in one. Value for money or what? (You lot always go off at a tangent anyway, so I thought I'd start the process off for you)

With regards to Tom Holt, I've read a couple of his books, and, while the good ones are pretty entertaining, I find his work inconsistent. I haven't read The Portable Door, but Only Human and Who's Afraid of Beowulf are really good. Thing is though, his stories kinda work the same way each time, and the endings sometimes just don't make sense (Nothing But Blue Skies, for example). I still read his work on the off chance that I'll find a good one, but even his best don't compare to Pratchett in my mind - they're just a little too colourless (almost as if the simple black and white of the cover is repeated in the text).
But hey, maybe I'm just being an overly picky Pratchett fan. I don't doubt it, actually - I only started reading Fforde because there was a quote by Pratchett on the back of An Eyre Affair. :P

On the swearing bit, I don't really know if there's much I can say by way of opinion. I'm 19 now, so my knowledge of what the kiddies read is limited. Also, I grew up in a family that really didn't care that much about swearing - the maxim was kind of "don't prohibit it and it won't be used as a means of rebellion", and I reckon I turned out pretty well. Eff-you-sea-kay was never part of our daily vocabulary, but I started reading Pratchett with The Fifth Elephant when I was 11, knowing full well what a Sonky was referring to and finding it absolutely hilarious.

In my opinion, there's really no point in trying being so prudent as to Bowdlerise every bit of literature kids are going to see. They're going to find it out anyway, and it's not minor exposure to four little letters that are going to turn them into obnoxious philandering druggies - that's the job of modern pop-star "role-models".

Well, that's my two cents' worth. Now to run off and swear allegro con motto.

Another author to add to my list. Haven't read any Tom Holt but I'll be checking it out (speaking of which I am sprinting along the Pratchett shelf now and getting more and more into Discworld with every book so thanks for that, fforum!).

I agree it's no use trying to keep the f-word out, and using swear words for emphasis or what have you works. If they're not (like you said Jazz) overworked. When that happens it just gets annoying to me.

I was watching Goonies again the other night, and there is quite a bit of swearing in that. More than I remembered. Never would get past the censors today, which is funny when I consider how much more often I hear kids and young adults swearing than ever I used to. I for one would never have said the f-word within an adult's hearing.

My son is 13, not 8, but of course I still edit his content to a certain degree. There are books I won't let him read yet, but I don't make too big a deal of it, except to keep them in my room. I think one of the stupidest things a parent can do is point at something and say "don't read / watch / listen to that, it's got dirty ideas / pictures / words!" Might as well hand it right over!

Interesting juxtaposition of threads subjects... as the even older fogies will tell you t*m h*lt was once considered something of a taboo round here ;)

I'm of a similar opinion to Kevin... several of his books are a bit samey, and of variable quality, but I'll buy them as and when they come out, cos there are some good bits. I haven't re-read them in a while (which says something about my opinion of them - I re-read a lot) but I have probably read them all several times. The recent portable door books are something of a return to form, and of the older ones I recall enjoying Expecting Someone Taller and Flying Dutch.

If you haven't already read any, someone will shortly recommend Robert Rankin, so it might as well be me. He's a bit.. odder... and again has variable quality but there is some quality, entertaining stuff in there.

Rob

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That statement is either so deep it would take a lifetime to fully comprehend every particle of its meaning, or it is a load of absolute tosh. Which is it, I wonder?
Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

Agreed Rob,

Rankin sprouts up in these sorts of collections of similar authors.

As for 'age' group reading I have a daughter who is good with words and language. What point would there be in keeping her reading books written for her calendar age when her literary skill age is about ten years advanced. That comes from being brought up in a book/magazine/tertiary studies environment, I would guess.

The 'F' word was never a problem and as she grew up I progressed fro 'Dad' to 'Grouchy old bugger' to 'shithead' and now back to 'dad'. If kids can't swear at their parents when it is justified then perhaps the parents need re-education.

I have another name that was given to me at Philosophy Club at Adelaide but I've mislaid the piece of paper. It will come to light in the next week I hope and I can pass it on. the titles are intriguing anyway.

Years ago I attended a reading by TH. He said that he once scrapped half a book when he read the lastest Pratchett and found that TP had used the same joke, but in a couple of sentences. He stoped reading TP.

While a lot of his books have similar themes, that seems true of most genre authors. It is interesting that I only really notice it in the authors I don't care for and now I don't know which is cause and which is effect!

Hi to all -
I have tried Rankin nad Holt and like them not, but then I'm not really a fantasy fan, just a Jasper Ffan. TP seems next best and Ive tried him too (my husband has the whole collection including Making Money and all the kids books he's written as well)
He's (hubby) persevering on the TP front and has just handed me Johnny and the Bomb, knowing I would read it as a work exercise if nothing else, as I write for children too.
I have to say his charaterisation in J and the B is incredible. I particularly love yo-less (a black kid with no "yo"), so maybe I'll stick with TP's kids range.
And talking of children's books, what I find more worrying is not the odd swear words but the morose themes and contents, reading to slash your wrist by is how my son described it when he was fifteen. (he's now 21 and a very descerning reader).
Our teenagers have a hard enough time staying up-beat without piling it on, so reading fun stuff like TP, Jasper and Co is a great antidote to what can be difficult years.

Jazz Sue?
A book I can recommend for your daughter is Noughts and Crosses by MAllory Blackman _ its set in a world where Blacks (crosses) are the ruling class and Whites (noughts) are the oppressed minority, and how two children's friendship (and eventually a more intimate relationship) crosses the divide. It is a little intense in parts so you might want to look at it yourself first. I think its fantastic! Blackman has basically swapped black and white people's histories. The questions raised and the charactersisation are second to none. There are two more in the series but I cnat rmember what they are called.
Cheers
Annette

On the question of swearing, one of my favourite passages in any book is the "swearing" episode in 'Paddy Clark, Ha Ha Ha'. The boys are sitting around and begin outdoing each other with the swear words they know. Eventually, Paddy lobs in with the Ace of Trumps (the F word) which gets repeated ad nauseum by everyone in the group, all cashing in on the forbidden glory and notoriety of saying the ultimate (to their minds, anyway) swear word.

I've used this book with students in middle and senior high school and we discuss this scene after I've read it aloud (I can defend using the book, but - if a complaint arose - I couldn't defend asking a student to read this section aloud).

One thing that usually comes out of the discussion is the immaturity of our fascination with swearing; the boys in the story are only very young and, by definition, immature. The glee of a nine year old in using forbidden words is understandable, but we discuss what this then implies about the mentality of older people whose every second word is effin' or blindin'.

The discussion usually also comes around to how the effect of the word wanes the more it is said (Lenny Bruce had a monologue - for which he was regularly arrested - which made much the same point) so that continually swearing is not just offensive (to some people) and an indicator of immaturity, but - most importantly - self-defeating if the primary objective is to create an emphasis.

One of the worst things about some ("other", I should add!) forums is that contributors feel that they can make their contributions much more memorable and forceful by swearing, and I'm always reminded of Paddy and the boys and think,"ha ha ha". Much the same applies, I think, to authors and their use of language - if swearing is their highest literary skill, I simply don't have time to waste reading them.

First place I ever saw FU written was in the rocket slide on the playground with my cousin-
I read it out loud, he told me that was bad & not to say it, but couldn't actually tell me why it was bad...

Sometime, check out George Carlin's '7 words you can't say'-
what do all these words have in common? They're Anglo-Saxon!

Somebody had to arbitrarily decide that these were bad words & frankly, not one of those bothers me in the slightest-
however, there is a certain Latin word for a female body part that make me cringe every time I hear it
(nope, not typing it here- but it's the hard vowel sound in the middle that bothers me)...

Having said that, I do like creative swearing- like 'Take off!' & such-
remember, we need to say something when we drop that hammer on our feet & not just scream loud enough to burst an eardrum...


Haven't read any Holt, unless he writes short stories for anthologies, same with Rankin-
don't have any kids yet either but I seem to recall there being a lot of children's reading suggestions in the boardello,
will look for that later...

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I also would not worry about language, I do not swear a lot, unless necessary and my parents were also very open- never tried to put us off reading older books etc.
I can remember when I was very little, I borrowed a book from the library that had an interesting cover- it was a unicorn or something (bit of a waste of another unicorn) and was from the "grown-up" book section. It was a bit explicit in naughtyness, I remember but did me no harm.

Robert,
I had an Eng Lit teacher in high school who walked into class as I was parading my new found vocabulary at full volume across the room at a boy (to do with a certain pastime teenage boys are known to indulge in when alone in their rooms)
At the end of class she took me aside (much more effective than a public flogging) and asked me if I was aware that people only swore because their limited vocabularly wouldn't allow them to express themselves adequately? Then she gave several examples of short scenes with a swear word in, and the same seen described more eloquently. This memory has really stuck and, to this day whn I write, I try never to use an expletive if I can describe it another way - after all Dickens didnt need to, nor Austen etc etc

Unicorn.
<sniggers>

I had a friend years ago who defused her daughter aged about five from unneccesary swearing by saying quite bluntly: 'Don't say 'f*ck' darling . It makes you sound like a boy'.

Skillful swearing is an art form, and has its uses. Among the classic Oz verse are:

The sunburnt bloody stockman
on his sunburnt bloody horse
etc

is a very good demonstration.

Anyone seeking to find more about Oz vernacular should look up Bill Wannan's books, as they have much of the best of Oz comic writing and recorded sayings, and we could use a return to that form of inventive language.

Those who follow the Billy Connolly way and use the f word all the time become tedious very quickly, as do those 'comics' on the idiot box at these so called 'comedy festivals' who are obsessed with women's body problems. This repetiton soon reveals that which is skilful and funny as opposed to that which is derivative and less than funny.