May I refer you to one of the other MFOAW (Main Founts of All Wisdom)?

"Through the Looking Glass and what Alice found there", Chapter 8. In particular, the song "A-sitting on A Gate". The name of the song is called "Haddocks' Eyes". The name really is"The Aged Aged Man", while the song is called "Ways and Means".

In just the same way, there is a cat which is the Cheshire Cat, whose name is secret and known only to him, but is called The Unitary Authority of Warrington Cat - the name, that is, not the cat - the cat is called many things.

These distinctions are quite clear and obvious, yet people just too often skate over them as if they were unimportant, which is far from the case. In the case of this cat, they tell us that there are things we just don't know.

We don't know the cat's name;
We don't know what the cat is called.

All we know is that he is the Cheshire Cat and his name's called the U.A.W. Cat.

I won't even start on considering his Title or Mode of Address.

Jon _
In our own reality, unless I'm greatly mistaken, at least part of what one might call Cheshire's "panhandle" _ the old county's narrow projection towards the north-east _ was indeed transferred into one of the pair of Yorkshire-centred 'Metropolitan Counties'. I thought (writing without a map handy) that this would have been "West Yorkshire" rather than "South Yorkshire": Was it in fact the latter instead?
Does anybody on this fforum have any acquaintances from the section of Yorkshire (part or all of the area traditionally called 'Craven', IIRC) that was transferred into Lancashire, know what they thought about that change back in the 1970s & know what they think about it nowadays?

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Alas, Simon, you are mistaken. I live not a Dodo's plock from the area of former Cheshire to which you refer (the former Urban Districts of Stalybridge, Hyde, Mossley, Dukinfield and Mottram-in-Longdendale) and all of it got transferred to Greater Manchester. As did the Saddleworth district of the West Riding of Yorkshire, where I live.

I can't speak for the good folk of West Craven (the area around Slaidburn) who were summarily planted into Lancs., but if they're owt like the folk round here they ignored the whole business and carried on being Yorkshirefolk. Why, only this weekend the local White Rose Society held a Yorkshire Day ....



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I am very interested in the Universe. I am specialising in the Universe and everything surrounding it. - E. L. Wisty

I knew that some part of that area was placed in Greater Manchester, but am certain that according to the map of the changes (which I was given on the following Christmas) the very eastern tip of it went into one of the Yorkshire counties instead. I'll defer to your local knowledge: Maybe I'm remembering the map correctly but IT was mistaken...

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Hmm Jon... They're being a bit previous. (To coin a phrase.)

Yorkshire Day is 1st August. (This Fri unless I'm mistaken.)
Also, known to us as Minden Day. Commemorating the Yorkshire Battalion's victory at Minden.

Simon; well, if there was a bit of Cheshire that got hived off over t'top, I don't think it can have affected anyone bar sheep. I remember reading those maps too, in my mother's library, and I really don't recall any bit of the flat and cheesy parts going Yorkie. I do recall that the original proposals put Warrington in Greater Manchester, which really would have sunk Jasper's gag.

Rob; ah, maybe I read the notice outside the Swan awrong. Have pity on me for an ignorant Lanky immigrant.



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I am very interested in the Universe. I am specialising in the Universe and everything surrounding it. - E. L. Wisty

<giggle> at Mike. I must read Through the Looking Glass again, haven't read it for years.

And I just do not pick up on these little things everyone else does...



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Do something pretty while you can...

Jon _

I've looked at various atlases (both current & historical) in the local library, earlier today, and it seems that we were both wrong. That north-eastern section of the "traditional" Cheshire wasn't added to one of the Yorkshire-based counties as I suggested yesterday, but neither was it included in 'Greater Manchester' as you thought had been the case instead: It was, in fact, added to the county of Derbyshire where it now comprises the northern tip of the 'High Peak' District... It's the "upper" section of an area called 'Longdendale', around the villages of Tintwistle and Woodhead, located across the River Etherow from "old" Derbyshire.

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Aha. I'm much obliged; do you know, I used to live in Hadfield (aka Royston Vasey), but I never knew Tintwistle was in Cheshire. I do know you pronounce it 'Tinsle', though.



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I am very interested in the Universe. I am specialising in the Universe and everything surrounding it. - E. L. Wisty

What is this English obsession with pronouncing name totally differently to how they are written. Mainwaring is pronounced Mannering. Chomoldsly (or something like that) is Chumsley. And my all time personal favourite: Featherstonehaugh = Fanshaw. How??????

Cholmondeley = Chumley
Menzies = Mingies (hence Oz PM Robert being known as Ming the Merciless)
Farquharson = Farson
Raleigh = Rawley (sometimes)

any more?

And as for place names ...



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I am very interested in the Universe. I am specialising in the Universe and everything surrounding it. - E. L. Wisty

'St John' = 'Sinjin' or 'maybe Sinjun' (if used as a modern personal name, as in the case of a former politician named 'Norman StJohn Stevens')

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Post Edited (07-30-03 14:55)

Beauchamp - Beecham
Belvoir - Beever

Marjoriebanks --> "Marchbanks"

And one fictional instance; although I've yet to see it in real life, it sounds plausible:
Taliaferro --> "Tolliver"



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&quot;Whisky-wa-wa,&quot; I breathed - she was dressed as Biffo the Bear.

I live in Stroud = Strood in Hampshire although there is a Stroud = Stroud (as in proud) in Gloucestershire (there's another one) and a Strood in Kent.

Weybourne = Weybourne in Norfolk but Weybourne = Wiburn in Surrey.

I suppose you could put it down to our British sense of humour. Or the fact we just like to be difficult.

Could it be a hang-over from Gaelic place names? Sometimes Gaelic words are pronounce uite differently to how they are spelt.

Gaelic place names are pronounced pretty much exactly as they are spelt .... using Gaelic spelling rules, of course.

A common culprit in these 'odd' pronunciations is French; some Norman clerk trying to apply French spelling rules to English words, or conversely, Saxon peasants trying to apply English pronunciations to French words. More generally, before the days of mass literacy, people would say names without being aware of how they were spelt; so the pronunciation would evolve over time, but the 'official' spelling remained fossilised with the original phonics. Outbreaks of mispeling vyrus can also be blamed (the Domesday Book is full of 'em).

This phenomenon is by no means confined to England - how would you pronounce Des Moines, for example?



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I am very interested in the Universe. I am specialising in the Universe and everything surrounding it. - E. L. Wisty

Duh Moyn of course ;-)

And Spokane, Washington is Spo (like spoke) - Can (not Kane or Cahn)

Pierre, South Dakota is pronounce Peer not Pee air

Illinois is pronounced Ill-uh-noy not Ill-i-noyce

Milan, Washington is pronounced My - lin not Meelahn

Chattaroy, Washington is chatter - roy (my hometown)

Cheney, Washington is Chee-Knee not Chay knee like everyone seems to think the Vice President's name is pronounced. He has said repeatedly how it should be said, but not even Dubya says it right, but then again, he can't say 'nuclear' either....

Moscow, Idaho is pronounced Moss- ko not Moss-Cow like Russia

Helena, Montana is pronounced Helen - a not Hell ay na

Pocatello, Idaho is pronounced Poke - a - tell- uh

Coeur d'Alene, Idaho is pronounced Core duh Layne not coor de Lenn like it would be in French (it's one of the biggest cities in Idaho and is known as the former mining hub of the Pacific Northwest - it means Heart of the Awl)

Boise, Idaho is Boyz-ee not Bwa-zzz like you'd think it would be in French.

We Americans love to bastardize French names, can ya tell? Then add all the Native American (Indian) names and it's a BIG mess

PS, can you tell where I grew up??

just remembered another good one...

Sequim, Washington (near Seattle) is pronounced "Skwim"
Snoqualmie pretty much sounds like it looks...Snow-kwalm-ee and it's the name of a mountain pass on I90 between Seattle and Spokane :) I've always just loved the word. I think it's pretty and descriptive



Post Edited (07-31-03 10:42)

As far as I know, English used to have phonetic spelling. As when people began to write they usually did it like they pronounced these words. If you take for example anglo-saxon or middle English texts, they sound surprisingly "German" (old German/middle high German that is), as words such as e.g "knight" were pronounced very close to German "Knecht" which is semantically very close to knight. Hard to explain without a phonetic font set. But I'm sure you'll get my point. However over the years and centuries language changed, mainly because people are generally lazy and keen to find a pronunciation which is somewhat "easier" to pronounce, but spelling didn't change equally. A similar shift took place in German, but I guess Germans are more into spelling reforms than other peoples. Can't say much more about this language, as I've quit German studies because I found English much more interesting.



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Colourless green ideas sleep furiously.

(N. Chomsky 1957)

Violet; You are correct when you say Old English was spelt phonetically (as far as anyone can tell, not having any native speakers to listen to), and it had a full set of declensions and inflections and genders just as German still has, too.

All that changed with the arrival of the Normans. Your average Norman couldn't be arsed learning all that complicated stuff just to give orders to the peasants. They operated more on the 'here you Johnny Saxon, you go fetch your sister chop chop, or we go cut head off one time' level. Modern English is, in fact, a Creole, a simplified version of the language developed to facilitate easier communication between a French-speaking ruling class and an Anglo-Danish subject population. This accounts for the many inconsistencies in the language; they are remnants either of other languages entirely (French or Danish, mainly) or of the quite strict rules that once governed the grammar of Old English. Chuck in on top of that a bunch of 18th century twits trying to force English to obey the rules of Latin grammar, and confusion aboundeth.



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I am very interested in the Universe. I am specialising in the Universe and everything surrounding it. - E. L. Wisty