hello mr. fforde,

why does otto von bismarck speak wrong enlish in "something rotten"? - do you really think a german politician of his importance and his upbringing would not have been able to speak english correctly?

unfortunately, most (if not all) of the sentences you let him say would have the same grammatical position of subject, verb etc. in english as well as in german. if you try to make a point by saying foreigners tend to translate their own grammar into a foreign language, you are totally wrong concerning the dialogue in question.

obviously you did not take the time to research that better - there would have been lots of mistakes that would really have been german false friends, though i doubt that bismarck would have made them...

it's sad to find this typically english version of anti-german bias also in your books...while especially the english (along with our freinds from america) are hardly ever educated enough to master ANY foreign language...

oliver jung

I just realised what I typed about 3 seconds after I posted it, sorry about the troll thing, although the last paragraph does have something of a whiff about it.

I think psd hit the nail on the head, but I would like to say that if you have a problem with Mr Fforde, at least address your concerns purely to him and please don't start a slanging match with the rest of the fforum/the entire english speaking world.

And this comes from someone who has made the effort to learn Spanish, French and a little bit of German. I ignored small minded comments from people about the germans as I thought it was ridiculous to generalise. Perhaps you should do the same.



Post Edited (01-08-05 16:25)

while we're at it, why didn't shakespeare research how a danish prince of hamlet's time would have spoken? i mean, no real person would go around saying "to be or not to be" or "get thee to a nunnery" all the time. clearly, his negligence has fostered and encouraged the anti-danish prejudice that has been building up in england ever since his time. honestly, mr. shakespeare, a great playwright such as you should be able to write more realistically and not support the anti-danish bias you clearly feel.

"it's sad to find this typically english version of anti-german bias also in your books...while especially the english (along with our freinds from america) are hardly ever educated enough to master ANY foreign language..."


Ah, Herr Pot, I'd like you to meet Mr Kettle. I think you've just scuppered your own argument there. Or to explain in a language you might understand: Ihre Äusserung, dass das gesamte englische Volk zu blöd ist eine Fremdsprache zu lernen ist äusserst beleidigend. Wenn Sie es schon für nötig halten auf einem uralten Klischee rumzureiten, sollten Sie doch wenigstens versuchen, das Ganze in vernünftigem Englisch darzulegen. Es ist ziemlich arm, anderen fehlende Fremdsprachenkenntnisse vorzuwerfen, wenn man sie selbst auch nicht hat.


For what it's worth, a proper piece of outdated stereotyping would represent Bismarck as someone who got up early to reserve the best bit of the living room with his beach towel whilst eating nothing but cabbage and sausages. Furthermore he would be dressed in outrageously tight leather shorts, and/or a daft pointy helmet. He might also choose to invade France at some stage in the proceedings, and would certainly have no sense of humour. That, I think we can agree, would be an unfair portrayal of someone who happened to be German.

What we have in TN4, in contrast, is a non-native English speaker making the sort of syntactical errors that 'sound right' - in real life someone might make slightly different errors, but they would be of a similar kind. Similarly, a German seeking to represent the sort of errors that an English speaker might make in German would probably rely on confusing vowel sounds and an inability to grasp genders and cases. Whilst nobody would be expected to make all the errors such a portrayal would involve, the effect would 'sound right', and not be specifically anti-English.



---------


This whole thread reminds me of the row brewing about the Queen's recent visit to Germany and the calls for her to apologise for Dresden. I was over in Germany visiting my girlfriend at the time, and spent most of my time explaining that the British were being misrepresented in the German press in just the same way the Germans were being misrepresented in the UK press. A large part of the problem, I thought at the time, was a willingness to take gratuitous offence over something seen as innocuous in the other country (the portrayals, not Dresden, obviously).

Fortunately I had a great time, and my German improved immensely over the fortnight. And nobody decided to use my weak German as a chance to demonstrate national educational superiority. Which was kind of them. Sadly, however, I think I've finally found a German I don't like.



PSD

==========

This is the work of an Italian narco-anarchic collective. Don't bother insulting them, they can't read English anyway.

As a non-native English speaker I didn;'t feel anything wrong in SR... Everything is Illuminated, on the other hand, tried too hard

Personally, Herr Jung, I think your letter says a lot more about your own prejudices than it does about Mr Fforde's, as your ludicrously mistaken generalisation assuming all the English are unable to speak foreign languages demonstrates.

Don't you think it would have been sensible (not to mention much politer) to ask him what he was intending to achieve, instead of making a false assumption and acting on it?

Finally, would you like me to translate this into German for you? Or does the fact that I'm Scots preclude me from your generalisation - unless, of course, you're assuming that 'the English' somehow magically include the Northern Irish, the Scots and the Welsh?

It's often sensible to think before you take offence.



_ _ _ _ _

If the English language made any sense, a catastrophe would be an apostrophe with fur.

splat, that was beautiful.

Herr Jung, your argument that Americans rarely take the time to master a foreign language is not wrong, nor is it original. After nearly a century of American domination in world politics and trade, the international language has become English. Americans (something I feel will hurt us in the future) do not feel the need to learn another language because it is generally accepted that any person dealing in international affairs will have learnt English. I can appreciate that this may be frustrating to you and I am by no means excusing Americans, but I am willing to defend my country from reckless accusations by hot-headed foreigners, not to mention Mr. Fforde.

This explains why Americans don't learn French or German. Spanish is the exception to the rule, as most of California, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and Florida now have large populations of Spanish-speaking peoples. And as to your attack that we are incapable of learning a new language through lack of intelligence...I am 75% German in heritage, sir. I suppose that is why I am generalized as less than intelligent.

This being despite the fact I have learnt French, am currently studying German and could probably recall the Italian from my childhood if I had to.



Post Edited (01-09-05 05:09)

"I count religion but a childish toy,
And hold there is no sin but ignorance."
Jew of Malta, prologue
Christopher Marlowe

Nicely said, Phoenix.

Thank you very much, Susan. My compliments for your argument as well.



"I count religion but a childish toy,
And hold there is no sin but ignorance."
Jew of Malta, prologue
Christopher Marlowe

And whilst we're about it, let's not forget that this is a work of fiction by a British author, written in English to entertain primarily speakers of English. Not a treatise on grammar; English or German.

And who's to say that German grammar is the same in Thursday's world, as it is in Herr Jung's, anyway? It'll be interesting to see what the translator makes of those sections in 'Etwas Faul'...

Ich vermeide, Kommentar zu machen.

PSD hat schon alles erklärt.



==========

Nose to the grindstone, shoulder to the wheel.
Now try to work in that position.

If you're going to speak in other languages, would you mind translating it.

And I am learning French, and one of my good friends speaks German fluently and can almost speak French fluently. Although as an Australian I suppose that excludes me from the English and American part of it, unless you meant the entire English speaking world.

Oh yes, and I can speak nearly fluent American and British-English as well.



=)

Yes.... Uh, no.... Actually......I don't know.... Um, hang on.... What was the question again?

I said that I wasn't going to comment because PSD had already said it all.

I'm English, was my point, and I'm fluent enough in German and know enough other English people with competency in foreign languages to be able to exclude myself from, and place in question the existence of, a so-called majority of English monoglots.

I was actually fighting your corner. Don't get stroppy with me because you didn't understand.



==========

Nose to the grindstone, shoulder to the wheel.
Now try to work in that position.

Sorry, I wasn't getting stroppy. I just like to know what is being said so I can add to it.

Sorry, looking back I can see it was a bit rude. sincere apologies.



=)

Yes.... Uh, no.... Actually......I don't know.... Um, hang on.... What was the question again?

:-)



==========

Nose to the grindstone, shoulder to the wheel.
Now try to work in that position.

I'm American, have a degree in German, studied a little French on my own, and am getting a start on Japanese. :P

Therefore, I feel it's my privilege to jump in here and differ with Phoenix's interpretation of why Americans in general don't learn foreign languages.

"Americans (something I feel will hurt us in the future) do not feel the need to learn another language because it is generally accepted that any person dealing in international affairs will have learnt English."

Now the question is...HOW MANY AMERICANS ARE DEALING IN INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS?

Very few. Most foreign-speaking countries are far enough away that the average American will only rarely get the chance to visit them.

In addition, this makes it even more difficult to learn the language--there is a dearth of native speakers to converse with, and a sad lack of foreign-language materials to practice reading skills.

So, is it really worth spending years trying to master a language without a chance to speak it to anyone, and possessing nothing worth reading in it, when the only time you will ever actually use it is to chat to a hotel clerk for two weeks of the summer, even supposing you could actually afford to go to Europe every year?

Inaccessibility and impracticality are the real reasons most Americans can't be bothered.

But, if you DO work in international affairs, there's no excuse for you. ;)

Yeah, I suppose when it's 3000 miles or whatever from LA to New York, you have to be seriously driven to want to fly over another 3000 miles of sod-all to visit Europe.



==========

Nose to the grindstone, shoulder to the wheel.
Now try to work in that position.

poetscientistdrinker wrote:
>
> For what it's worth, a proper piece of outdated stereotyping
> would represent Bismarck as someone who got up early to reserve
> the best bit of the living room with his beach towel whilst
> eating nothing but cabbage and sausages. Furthermore he would
> be dressed in outrageously tight leather shorts, and/or a daft
> pointy helmet.

[en.wikipedia.org]

I doubt he wore lederhosen, though, as they're more a Bavarian thing and Bismarck was a Prussian.

Just curious - is there any incentive/interest in North America to learn the native languages of the US & Canada, i.e. native American languages?

This is something which is growing in the UK now; the desire to preserve, encourage and increase the knowledge and use of Welsh; Scottish & Irish Gaelic; Cornish; Manx.... errrh... have I forgotten any of them? Dwi'n siarad Cymraeg, er enghraifft [I speak Welsh, for instance].

I just discovered this thread - but even though it is mainly a bit older I would like to give a few comments. First: apart from the opening post, did you notice none of the replies were from one of the german forum members? (not sure about DJR)

No, I won't take Mr. Jungs side. But some words are needed, I think. My position might be typical for a lot of germans. I learnt english in school, wasn't really good at that time, but needed to read a lot of english texts in university: about 75% of all articles (in a humanities field, so it was not only the usual engineering/programmers i-need-to-do-this-but-give-a-****). Then I discovered english fiction. Nowadays half of what I read is english. But what is lacking is an opportunity to practice speaking and writing. I know that my skills do not suffice.

So, I see myself fairly fit to appreciate Mr. Fforde's books. But writing here, at a place populated mainly by native english speakers with an intense interest in language? You need to pick up courage! Please, bear with us non-englishers: most of us understand the jokes, but may not be able to counter them wittily...

All that said, PSDs comment on Pot & Kettle is certainly right. Even if I also feel that Bismarck's english sounds untrue, well, where is the problem? Fforde once produced a picture of the Spec-Ops building in Swindon. In TEA it was described as a typical german "gothic" design from the occupation time. The picture is nothing like that, and Fforde was the first to admit it. Does this take anything away from the idea? I think not!

By the way, the same holds true for Froer's Everything is Illuminated. I disagree with Carla. If there was really someone trying to write "better" english by looking up random words in a thesaurus, maybe the outcome wouldn't look like this. And admit it, the idea is absurd in the fist place. But it is needed for the story. The exaggerated, even unbelievable humor of the beginning is essential as a contrast to the darkness of what transpires later.

OK, let me end this with an advice by Gayle Tufts. She's a comedian of american origin living in Berlin. She makes a living off speaking neither german nor english correctly. If you like, check out her website. It is bi-lingual, but you won't find one accurate sentence anywhere:

Keep kuhl, everybody!

PrinzHilde

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