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    <title>Lost in a Good Book</title>
    <link>http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/list.php?2</link>
    <description><![CDATA[Separate forum for discussions relating to this particular book.]]></description>
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    <pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2003 16:29:23 +0200</pubDate>
    <lastBuildDate>Mon, 05 May 2003 16:29:23 +0200</lastBuildDate>
    <category>Lost in a Good Book</category>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: neanderthals and us</title>
      <link>http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5832#msg-5832</link>
      <author>Anonymous User</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Not necessarily true. My partner has, amongst other pets, a mamouth called Claudia. She never overheats, well maybe thats not 100% accurate depending of course on your interpretation of &quot;over-heating&quot;!! As for the smell, well Old Spice isn't as expensive as it used to be.
Friday Last wrote:

&gt; Why hello there!
&gt;  
&gt; Would neanderthals really be able to live in today's climate? 
&gt; Surely bringing back any form of pre-historic life form (even
&gt; if technically possible) would not be possible.  The air,
&gt; water, temperature, etc, surely would be so out of whack with
&gt; their biological systems that they would perish immediately?  
&gt; 
&gt; I mean if we were to be transported to whatever millions of
&gt; years ago, the stench (?) and air would kill us instantly?  
&gt; 
&gt; Or would it?
&gt; 
&gt; Hmmm.
&gt; 
&gt; ]]></description>
      <category>Lost in a Good Book</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5832#msg-5832</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2003 16:29:23 +0200</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: neanderthals and us</title>
      <link>http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5818#msg-5818</link>
      <author>Sarah B</author>
      <description><![CDATA[*Puts hand up*

It's Cabbage, miss, cabbage!


Yeah well, far too intellectual for me...

]]></description>
      <category>Lost in a Good Book</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5818#msg-5818</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:22:08 +0200</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: neanderthals and us</title>
      <link>http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5813#msg-5813</link>
      <author>Anonymous User</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I once had a Physics instructor explain entropy as the way Mother Nature makes everything end up in the bottom of our school lockers.  Then some smart ass chimed in that he thought that was just gravity.  The instructor just stood there and then said, &quot;Well, in MY universe, we call that entropy.&quot;  And if you knew this teacher, it would have made perfect sense! LOL, he was a nut. But his classes were fun.]]></description>
      <category>Lost in a Good Book</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5813#msg-5813</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2003 03:05:34 +0200</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: neanderthals and us</title>
      <link>http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5810#msg-5810</link>
      <author>poetscientistdrinker</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I cna cope with entropy being disorder. I can even cope with it only being able to increase (in a closed system). What I can't cope with is people putting numbers to it for the purposes of equations. I can't see how you could even tell if there was a fraction more entropy in a system. It's like trying to explain temperature to me, except I don't have the rather instructive option of being able to put my hand into a kettle of boiling water.

]]></description>
      <category>Lost in a Good Book</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5810#msg-5810</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2003 17:39:56 +0200</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: neanderthals and us</title>
      <link>http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5809#msg-5809</link>
      <author>dave</author>
      <description><![CDATA[nicely put. I doff my cap in your direction.]]></description>
      <category>Lost in a Good Book</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5809#msg-5809</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2003 16:30:39 +0200</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: neanderthals and us</title>
      <link>http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5808#msg-5808</link>
      <author>Magda</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Or, as Tom Baker put in in Dr. Who:

&quot;The more you keep putting things together, the more they keep falling apart.  That's the essence of the second law of thermodynamics, and I never heard a truer word spoken.&quot;]]></description>
      <category>Lost in a Good Book</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5808#msg-5808</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2003 16:29:48 +0200</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: neanderthals and us</title>
      <link>http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5807#msg-5807</link>
      <author>Magda</author>
      <description><![CDATA[That would be increases.

The best summary I've found of the 3 laws of thermodynamics were
1.  You can't win.
In other words, matter and energy are conserved, you can't get something for nothing.

2.  You can't break even.
Energy and matter tend to move towards a more disorganized state, rather than toward a more organized one.  The degree or amount of disorder is referred to as entropy, and in a closed system entropy always increases with any work done.
This is why perpetual motion doesn't work.  You always lose a bit of the energy (usually as heat) over time to the surrounding environment.  Once the energy is evenly distributed, it can no longer be used to perform work.

3.  You can't stop playing.
To stop the increase of entropy in a system, the system would have to be at 0 degrees Kelvin, which is not attainable.

]]></description>
      <category>Lost in a Good Book</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5807#msg-5807</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2003 16:27:06 +0200</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: neanderthals and us</title>
      <link>http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5805#msg-5805</link>
      <author>dave</author>
      <description><![CDATA[or was it increases? I can never remember. 

Possibly explains how I managed to get a third class degree in astrophysics.]]></description>
      <category>Lost in a Good Book</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5805#msg-5805</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2003 23:52:38 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: neanderthals and us</title>
      <link>http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5804#msg-5804</link>
      <author>dave</author>
      <description><![CDATA[it decreases, iirc.

what more do you need?]]></description>
      <category>Lost in a Good Book</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5804#msg-5804</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2003 23:43:24 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: neanderthals and us</title>
      <link>http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5803#msg-5803</link>
      <author>poetscientistdrinker</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Erm, thanks... Glad you appreciated it - it was just something that interested me, really. I'd like a decent explanation of entropy, if anybody has one, as I'm sure I'm missing something.

]]></description>
      <category>Lost in a Good Book</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5803#msg-5803</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2003 20:34:09 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: neanderthals and us</title>
      <link>http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5802#msg-5802</link>
      <author>Simon</author>
      <description><![CDATA[PSD_ Thanks for explaining this topic so thoroughly to the fforum, as you've thereby saved me from feeling obliged to try doing so.

************************************************************

&quot;Some days I diet, other days they serve lasagne.&quot;]]></description>
      <category>Lost in a Good Book</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5802#msg-5802</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2003 20:25:04 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: neanderthals and us</title>
      <link>http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5801#msg-5801</link>
      <author>poetscientistdrinker</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Friday - Good point. However, we know that in the Nextian Universe it is possible to splice in the missing DNA for species (unlike in our world) - I think we'll have to assume that some DNA was spliced in to complete the genome, and that it included the region coding for the larynx and such-like. 

Jon - I didn't see Walking with Liam and Noel, I was too busy being politically incorrect with Command and Conquer Generals. 

Dave - I'm only glad it wasn't to do with the velocity of swallows.

]]></description>
      <category>Lost in a Good Book</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5801#msg-5801</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2003 19:41:43 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: neanderthals and us</title>
      <link>http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5800#msg-5800</link>
      <author>Rob</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Last day of term. Students have deadlines and finally come out of the woodwork to hassle us.

Also,  I'm going skiing tomorrow, so have to get ahead at work.]]></description>
      <category>Lost in a Good Book</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5800#msg-5800</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2003 17:02:28 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: neanderthals and us</title>
      <link>http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5799#msg-5799</link>
      <author>jon</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Work??!! On a Friday arvo??

Burn the heretic!

]]></description>
      <category>Lost in a Good Book</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5799#msg-5799</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2003 16:59:31 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: neanderthals and us</title>
      <link>http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5798#msg-5798</link>
      <author>Rob</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I knew Caracas but have been doing work and what-not.
It has a Male:Female ratio of 1:14 (see Gregory's Girl).]]></description>
      <category>Lost in a Good Book</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5798#msg-5798</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2003 16:57:45 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: neanderthals and us</title>
      <link>http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5797#msg-5797</link>
      <author>dave</author>
      <description><![CDATA[*one gold star in post to Jon's secret Yorkshire Village headquarters*]]></description>
      <category>Lost in a Good Book</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5797#msg-5797</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2003 16:38:23 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: neanderthals and us</title>
      <link>http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5796#msg-5796</link>
      <author>Anonymous User</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Uh...yeah...yeah...that's just what I was thinking...yeah that's right.  ;o)

But the 'thal in LIAGB was talking wasn't he?  Even if it was broken and monosylabic...he was still talking.

]]></description>
      <category>Lost in a Good Book</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5796#msg-5796</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2003 16:31:45 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: neanderthals and us</title>
      <link>http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5795#msg-5795</link>
      <author>jon</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Caracas - and the same to you

]]></description>
      <category>Lost in a Good Book</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5795#msg-5795</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2003 16:29:27 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: neanderthals and us</title>
      <link>http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5794#msg-5794</link>
      <author>dave</author>
      <description><![CDATA[*puts hand up*

what's the capital of venezuela?


(useful trick to put lecturers off. They ask 'anyone got any questions?' , get the venezuela one, and get confused. Tee hee)

Gold star for the first reply... will it be Jon or PSD?]]></description>
      <category>Lost in a Good Book</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5794#msg-5794</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2003 16:10:08 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: neanderthals and us</title>
      <link>http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5793#msg-5793</link>
      <author>jon</author>
      <description><![CDATA[*puts hand up*

Did you see 'Walking with Cavemen' last night? I thought it was crap.

]]></description>
      <category>Lost in a Good Book</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5793#msg-5793</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2003 16:06:16 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: neanderthals and us</title>
      <link>http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5792#msg-5792</link>
      <author>poetscientistdrinker</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Hullo there....

Good question, and there's good and bad news. The bad news is that I'm currently 100 miles away from my notes on human origins and Quaternary environments, the good news is that I can remember a shed-load and I'm sat in a university library. This of course means that I can be a terrible smart-arse, so I'm going to indulge myself. 

-----------------------------

Going back as far as Neanderthals:

'Thals were around up until as recently as 30,000 years before the present, although there is evidence from the Pyrenees of them hanging on a bit longer than that, although this is the subject of much debate. They probably evolved atb the same time as recognisably modern humans about 150,000 years before present. One area of intesne debate is whether they were a sub-species of Homo sapiens or a seperate species Homo neanderthalensis. As with all these debates, it depends on your personal definition of species. mitochondrial dna supports the seperate species theory, but the significance of this is again debatable.  

There is evidence that neanderthal genes persist in current populations, although the majority view is they aren't direct ancestors of modern people. The evidence includes caucasian males having a ridge of bone above the eye-sockets (feel it yourself) and it is also postulated that red hair and freckles ,ay also be a neanderthal hangover from 'Thal populations breeding into the gene pool in Europe. Again, there isn't much way of telling decisively, although I confess that it is an attractive idea.

 One major difference seems to have been the hyloid bone, a small bone in the throat that affects speech. The postion of this in 'Thals seems to suggest that their voice box was not as advanced as ours, reducing the range of sounds available. The influence of this on language is debatable - sign language is perfectly possibly for those who are deaf, for example. 

Whatever you believe about seperate species, the evidence all points to them being very similar to modern humans in physiology. They may have been marginally more adapted for the cold, but then this wouldn't mean they couldn't cope with modern conditions. For example, inuits are adapted for the cold- especially their noses, yet have no problem with climate in any other part of the world. 

Bearing in mind modern humans were also in Europe during the last glacial period (the Devensian, dontcha know) you have to assume that there hasn't really been that much change. Especially when you look at some of the coditions during that period. For example, during the early part of the last glaciation, there is evidence that summer temperatures were higher than the modern day. No evidence from ice cores or any other source show a significant change in concentrations of oxygen, although CO2 levels may have changed this change is less than the change through moving from a crowded room to the open air in modern life. 

So, basically, 'Thals would have no problem surviving in modern climates, and indeed had survived millennia in similar environments. Similarly, there is no problem with modern humans flying from the British Isles to the tropics - a far bigger climatic change. This seems to suggest that there would be no problem with us travelling in time to different climates either.

-------------------------------

Further back than 'Thals... some issues.

Climatic conditions in the deep past, however, may be very very different to the modern day. There is some evidence that the atmosphere in the Carboniferous period may have been much more oxygen rich. This may not be a problem for us going back in time then, but would be a problem if you tried to regenerate a giant dragonfly from the time - it simply wouldn't be able to get enough oxygen to stay alive. However this is a specific case, and generally the climate would be the least of the problems. Certainly the range of animals re-engineered in the TN books have all been alive during conditions similar to todays. Mammoths, interestingly, survived both the worst conditions of the Devensian glaciation and the warmest parts of the Ipswichian interglacial before it. All the evidence is that they would have thrived under current conditions. Unfortunately there was a short burst (]]></description>
      <category>Lost in a Good Book</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5792#msg-5792</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2003 13:48:29 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>neanderthals and us</title>
      <link>http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5791#msg-5791</link>
      <author>Anonymous User</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Why hello there!
 
Would neanderthals really be able to live in today's climate?  Surely bringing back any form of pre-historic life form (even if technically possible) would not be possible.  The air, water, temperature, etc, surely would be so out of whack with their biological systems that they would perish immediately?  

I mean if we were to be transported to whatever millions of years ago, the stench (?) and air would kill us instantly?  

Or would it?

Hmmm.

]]></description>
      <category>Lost in a Good Book</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.jasperfforde.com/phorum/read.php?2,5791,5791#msg-5791</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2003 04:36:25 +0100</pubDate>
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