Oh, yes, Ivarr the Boneless. I've always wondered how he got his name. I assume you must know - would you like to share this information if it's not too grisly?



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That which does not kill us makes us stranger.
(Llewelyn the dragon, Ozy and Millie)

Sarah

Well, the nickname is very contentious. Ivarr's only comtemporary notices are in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, and no byname at all is recorded there. 'Boneless' appears first in a much later and very imaginative work, the 'Ragnarssaga' first written down in Iceland in the 12thC, i.e. nearly 300 years after his death. So it may not be genuine at all. The Saga explains it by saying he was born under a curse, and had only gristle where his bones should be; it goes on to say that he could not walk and had to be carried into battle, where he fought only with a longbow. This account is what leads Shaban to believe he was a brittle-bone sufferer, and if it were true that is not of itself unreasonable.

However. The saga-story might be a 'back-formation', that is a story invented to explain something no longer understood; Dark Age history is full of these. A fatal objection to Shaban's theory is that one has grave difficulty imagining a Viking army accepting as leader and taking orders from a cripple, and Ivarr headed a very large and successful army, which conquered most of England and also Dublin. Assuming that the byname is genuine and that he was not a cripple, there are three possibilities; 1. that 'boneless' refers to his er, amorous exploits, or lack of same; i.e. he was inoperative in the lerve department. 2. it is a joke name on the lines of Little John; the real Ivarr was a huge great bony man. or 3. boneless is a misunderstanding of his real name, which was actually something else, perhaps 'baneless' meaning lucky. Other explanations might be devised.

The short answer is, nobody knows. I incline to option 1 myself, but my guess is as good as anyone's really. I love Dark age history. It's so easy to become an expert.



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I am very interested in the Universe. I am specialising in the Universe and everything surrounding it. - E. L. Wisty

Fascinating! Thanks for all that. :-)



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That which does not kill us makes us stranger.
(Llewelyn the dragon, Ozy and Millie)

Sarah

Sarah _
I'm happily listening to the Leopold Mozart CD that I own right now, and think that you might also enjoy this. It's performed by the Munchener Kammerorchester, its title is a partial listing of the works featured ("Sinfonia Pastorella. Sinfonia Burlesca. Divertimento Militaire. Neue Lambacher Sinfonie"), it's on a label called 'Tudor' (which isn't British, despite that name, but Swiss!) and its catalogue number is 7066. The complete list of the works included, in order of play, is: Divertimento Militaire (some sections of which comprise a rather sprightly march), Sinfonia Burlesca (2 movements of which are named after characters from the Commedia dell' Arte, hence its name), Sinfonia Pastorella fur Corno (in which the usual instruments are joined by an Alphorn!), a Sinfonia in G, and then the Neue Lambacher Sinfonie (which is a 4-movement piece that was inspired by Wolfgang's 3-movement Lambacher Symphony, and has sometimes been attributed to Wolfgang rather than Leopold in the past...).

Another CD of Telemann's works that I recommend is "Twelve Fantasias for Violin Solo. Gulliver Suite for Two Violins", performed by Andrew Manze & (joining him for the Suite) Caroline Balding, released [quite recently] on the 'Harmonia Mundi' label with the catalogue number 907137.

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"This was willed where what is willed... can get rather silly."

Sounds wonderfully harmonious. :-)



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That which does not kill us makes us stranger.
(Llewelyn the dragon, Ozy and Millie)

Sarah

Back to ol' Noggin the Goblin (or whatever his name was) I sort of half-heartedly watched the program and having seen the bloke on top of a shield I can see how it'd scare the pants off any opposing army - it looked like there was only half a bloke being carried into battle. You can see how somebody with the disease could be adopted as a mascot to scare the opposition, but I agree that it's hard to imagine him as a fearsome leader, although stranger things have happened...



PSD

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This is the work of an Italian narco-anarchic collective. Don't bother insulting them, they can't read English anyway.

Noggin the Goblin - can I use that one?

They repeated Noggin the Nog during my second year BSc Physics exams, which angered me considerably as I couldn't spare a minute. Humph. There's bound to be a slash version somewhere with Thor Noggson involved. No, I don't want to read it.

I agree with Jon. If there was a contemporary account, that would make me ask 'so what list of diseases could result in you going to war carried on a shield?', whereas here I am asking 'if the producers didn't choose to pass the story off as plausible would they sell the program to the TV company'? Wishful thinking is understandable, but doesn't constitute evidence.

What I do wonder about is, so what did the big strong Viking do dying in bed in Dublin? Perhaps a genetic condition could have caused an early death, but there are plenty of Dark Ages maladies that could settle for him as well.

Ho hum, the 'Castles' program was a dud as well.

Two questions about the viking.

I don't think Vikings used longbows; they weren't seen on the battlefields until sometime later.
Pulling and releasing a bow requires strength and imparts a degree of shock when the arrow is released. I am not convinced that someone with brittle bone disease could use a bow on a regular basis. The forces would probably break their wrists and possibly damage the shoulders.

I agree with Jon. there's no way the Vikings would follow a cripple into war. The cripples were shoved right up the back of the longhouse and used as a sor tof indoor toilet, from what I know of Viking society. Perhaps the man was double jointed and folks called him boneless because it looks like he had no bones in that part of his body.


Perhaps I'm clutching at straws.

Just before I go (I only came online to check the weather) ....

Skiffle; the longbow most certainly was in use in Viking times. And well before. It wasn't as long or as destructive as in its later heyday (Agincourt etc) but it was there all right ... as used by Norman archers to great effect at Hastings. As for a brittle-bone sufferer not being able to use one, Nabil Shaban proved conclusively that they can. He found a wheelchair basketball player with the condition, and gave him a go with a replica bow. No problem; the condition does not of itself adversely affect muscular strength (this guy looked pretty powerful in the arms) and there is in fact very little recoil shock; a bow doesn't work like a gun; the energy stored in the string is almost all transferred to the arrow. The 'action' is the pulling of the string, and the 'opposite reaction' the firing of the arrow. (Whereas in a gun the 'action' is the firing of the bullet and the 'opposite reaction' is recoil).

Kaz; actually the 'double-jointed' idea is one of the more popular theories to explain his name, and I should have mentioned it before. Perhaps he did tricks to show off his suppleness or something.



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I am very interested in the Universe. I am specialising in the Universe and everything surrounding it. - E. L. Wisty

Maybe he wrapped his legs around the back of his neck like the chap I was engaged to while I was at university. I had a terrible job persuading him that my mother would not be impressed by this feat!



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That which does not kill us makes us stranger.
(Llewelyn the dragon, Ozy and Millie)

Sarah

I'm sure your mother would have been horrified, I know I was, and if he'd been able to see the view he presented, he'd have worn baggier breeks.

VPL was the least of his problems ;-S

Well if his upper body was that well developed he must have been a bugger to carry around on a shield, and if he carried the longbow with him it would have been hard not to clonk his carriers on the head with it (my humble inexpert opinion).

Depends which 'p', bob



PSD

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This is the work of an Italian narco-anarchic collective. Don't bother insulting them, they can't read English anyway.

To be fair, I don't think I've ever met anyone who would look good with their legs wrapped round the back of their necks. There are some things the human body just wasn't meant to be able to do!



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That which does not kill us makes us stranger.
(Llewelyn the dragon, Ozy and Millie)

Sarah

Sucha s sticking their fingers up their nose. That definately doesn't look good.