Maybe then people will accept my answer:
"Do you consider yourself a Northerner or a Southerner?"
I am a Midlander.
"But there isn't a box for that."

You know, I always wondered where the term "pub" came from. I knew what it meant , just not why. Now I know. Thanks for that.

That's my answer too. At University no one could place my Derbyshire accent as North or South.

Have we covered the Bristol "L" on here yet? To a Bristolian, virtually any word ending in a vowel sound is finished with an additional L - an "umbrellal" for instance, or a "nice areal to live in"

Any word ending in a L on the other hand is, confusingly, pronounced with a W sound (hence the cartoon character "Bristow", which ran for many years in the Bristol Evening Post)

Meanwhile down here in Moonraker country (aka Wiltshire; I'll relate the origin of that one another time if anyone's even vaguely interested or even still awake after all this) the term "her" is used far more than "his" - we might be backwards in many regards but we're way ahead in terms of political correctness!

"Her's got a nice new car" for instance would be used irrespective of whether the subject is male or female. "Oh aaah, her's playing skittles down the Feathers" likewise could refer to a player of either gender.

Although Somerset born and Wiltshire bred, I was raised by my (Devonshire born) mother who speaks very "naicely" purely as a result of having been trained as a GPO Telephone Operator back in the 50s when they were expected to speak the "Queen's English". Consequently I have a very neutral accent myself, though I have to confess I do adore the West Country "twang" - particularly that soft Devonshire burr. It's definitely a distinct disadvantage to sound too much as if you come from the West Country though. For instance, the only way someone with a pronounced West Country accent would get a job in a radio or TV station would be if they were presenting a rural affairs programme. It's really subtle discrimination, but it exists nonetheless.

I listen to all the principal national radio stations a great deal, and the only time you hear a West Country accent is if the programmers want to paint a rural picture. The fashion at the moment seems to be for all the right-on DJs and children's presenters to have Northern accents; sports presenters to come from the Midlands and news presenters to come from the Home Counties. Listen to an early morning farming, fishing or country-life programme and you might hear a gentle Hampshire burr if you're lucky, but there's little chance of a strong Somerset accent ever presenting such a programme. And yet the stronger one's Manchester accent is, the more likely you are to be given a job presenting a prime-time pop show.

Sorry... I seem to have gone off on one there! Makes note to self to post little and often and not save it all up like her has today....



Post Edited (07-29-03 21:29)

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* I'm backing the campaign to get the official Stalker for 2007 evicted *

you know, it just kills me that in a country as small as England, that there are so many accents and quasi-dialects. Boggles it does!

The excellent Alan Stevens (who pops up in my posts now and again as a general Blake's 7 and Dr Who expert, and the genius behind the Kaldor City series) is from Gloucestershire, and he has an accent to which I could cheerfully listen all day. (This is just as well, because get Alan on the phone and he can talk for all Europe!) He insists that his accent is not very strong, and most people in the Forest of Dean (where he lives) have a much more pronounced burr than he does. Well, it sounds strong enough from where I'm sitting, that's all I can say.

Alan nearly always gives himself a bit part in his SF audio productions, and I enjoy trying to spot it the first time I listen (sometimes it's "blink and you'll miss it", though, or the auditory equivalent). He's quite good at disguising his voice, but somehow that Gloucestershire burr always sneaks through somewhere. It's reassuring to think that, even on a completely alien planet, there's at least one person who comes from the Forest of Dean! :-)



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That which does not kill us makes us stranger.
(Llewelyn the dragon, Ozy and Millie)

Sarah

Well, every planet has its pockets of radical inbreeding....



PSD

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This is the work of an Italian narco-anarchic collective. Don't bother insulting them, they can't read English anyway.

Britain's many accents and dialects date from the times before mass travel and communication. This country was invaded many times before the Normans came, and English is a mish-mash of Latin, Old French, Old German, Norse, Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, Gaelic and GSD only knows what else. With invaders settling in different parts of the country, and previous residents shuffling about, different words and accents developed within relatively isolated communities.

Before the development of the railways in the 19th century, few people travelled more than a few miles from home. Local accents and dialects evolved with little 'contamination' from the rest of the country.

Another transatlantic difference _

Lawyers in the USA seem to be referred to as 'attorneys', quite frequently, at least in some circumstances. (Would a USAn contributor to the fforum please clarify this?) That word is hardly ever applied to their counterparts here in England (& Wales), however: Although some people (who needn't be lawyers) may be given 'power of attorney' to act on on somebody else's behalf the only case that I can recall in which it's the standard term used to describe any lawyer is that of the UK government's 'Attorney-General'. On the other hand, the lawyers who practice here in England (& Wales) are divided into 'Solicitors' (who handle matters of civil law, such as wills and property transactions, and can "appear" in court during relatively minor cases or the preliminary stages of more important ones) and 'Barristers' (who have a monopoly on "appearing" in court in the more important trials, and who [unless currently working for the Crown Prosecution Service] are normally "instructed" by a solicitor rather than approached directly by would-be clients). Oh, and Barristers who've acquired a reputation for winning cases may be offered to "take silk" as 'Queen's Counsels' (or 'King's Counsels', depending on the gender of the country's current monarch) which allows them to charge higher fees and to use the letters 'QC' (or 'KC') after their name but requires them to seek official consent before they can agree to "appear" in certain types of case.

I suspect that the system in Scotland differs from the English (& Welsh) one, but don't know the details of this.

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Post Edited (07-30-03 13:52)

I don't think we have a system. 'Lawyer' and 'attorney' are used interchangeably. (I may be wrong...but you'll never be able to prove it in a court of law.)

Yeah. What he said.

But Bristow is still in The Age...

Does he ever see the "hauntingly beautiful" woman in his office?



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Those who forget the pasta are doomed to reheat it.

Hey, thanks for that Simon! I've occasionally tried to find all that stuff succinctly explained in layman's terms; I knew the basics and was familiar with all the names (who wouldn't be after a lifetime of reading crime fiction from both sides of the pond?) but putting them in order like that and making sense of it all has eluded me till now. Cheers!

Another one that always confuses my American friends is the role of the sheriff in England (and again I know it's different in Scotland) - everyone's heard of the Sheriff of Nottingham, but they seem to think of him (nowadays more likely to be a "her" I suppose) as a Wyatt Earp sort of character which isn't the case at all. Except I can't really explain it properly. Any ideas?

I think that the present Sheriff of Nottingham is also the Deputy Lord Mayor, I'm not sure that the title Sheriff means very much here now. Didn't a Sheriff rule a shire and a Earl (Count) rule a county?



Post Edited (07-30-03 14:09)

The word Sherriff comes from the old English term Shire Reeve. A reeve was similar to a butler in a nobleman household, so basically he ran the place. So a Shire Reeve, or sherriff, ran the shire. As to what they do in the role now I have no idea because we don't have them in Australia.

The role of Sheriffs (or 'High Sheriffs', as I believe is the correct title in at least some cases) in present-day England is something that I looked for information about at some point last year but was unable to find explained clearly. It may be primarily ceremonial nowadays, like the role of the 'Lord Lieutenants' (who were originally in charge of their counties' militia forces).

Most of the Sheriffs (or High Sherrifs) for areas within England or Wales are chosen, from a list that some committee or other prepares, by the monarch.
Most of their traditional roles in the field of law-enforcement have obviously been lost to the police forces & prison service, and the abolition of the death-penalty means that they no longer have to serve as the monarch's representative at executions (which used to be the case at one point, but may have stopped being so once all of the executions started being held within prisons as I think that the prison governors performed that duty there instead). They were formerly required to ceremonially greet 'circuit judges' or judges of the 'High Court' when these arrived within their jurisdictions for official purposes, and to provide some degree of hospitality (including at least one banquet per visit) for them, which was one reason why only some people could be considered eligible for the post: This role may also have lapsed. (Do we even HAVE 'circuit judges' today?) I think that they might still be responsible for overseeing the management of the local law-courts (if those hadn't already been taken-over by the Lord Chancellor's Department before Blair's "reforms"...), although I'm not sure about that, and that they are still responsible for ensuring _ by employing bailiffs, if necessary _ that court orders are enforced.

The 'City of London' ("the old square mile", on the site of the original city around which today's 'Greater London' conurbation coalesced...), which has managed to retain not only a distinct political identity _ separate from any of that region's more populous boroughs _ but also many of its medieval traditions, elects two High Sheriffs at a time. Their jurisdiction also covers 'Middlesex' (a former county [within which I was born] that has mostly been absorbed by 'Greater London', although one district is now included in the county of Surrey instead), at least in theory, and I think that they function as magistrates.

Would one of our Scottish contributors care to explain the role of the Sheriff (and that of the 'Procurator Fiscal') in their province's legal system?


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Post Edited (07-30-03 14:48)

Oops. You may get skelped by hordes of Caledonians for referring to their homeland as a 'province' ...



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I am very interested in the Universe. I am specialising in the Universe and everything surrounding it. - E. L. Wisty

I'd use the same term for England too, or for either of Wales or Northern Ireland as well for that matter, when referring to any of those lands specifically as a division of the UK... What word would you suggest using instead as the "correct" term? It can't really be 'Kingdom', because Wales is only a 'Principality'...
(And at least I called it "Scotland" rather than "North Britain"... :-)

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Post Edited (07-30-03 16:36)

Well, what's wrong with 'country'? England, Scotland and Wales are all definitely countries with separate national identities (as well as sharing in the UK one). They may not be nation-states, but they can I think be fairly counted as nations.

The only political/historical units in these Isles for which the word 'province' can be legitimately used are Munster, Leinster, Connacht and Ulster, of which a part of Ulster is in Northern Ireland, which is often itself referred to as a province, but whether that is correct or not is, as they say, Another Story.

Incidentally, referring to parts of England outwith the so-called 'Home Counties' as 'the Provinces' gets right up my nose.



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I am very interested in the Universe. I am specialising in the Universe and everything surrounding it. - E. L. Wisty

Amen to that.